Synthetic Fuel to save ICE, cleaner than EV

Discussion in 'General' started by BigBird, Feb 28, 2021.

  1. BigBird

    BigBird blah

    418 likes this.
  2. rd49

    rd49 Well-Known Member

    Lol, only $37/gallon.
    TurboBlew likes this.
  3. BigBird

    BigBird blah

    hey...saving the environment isn't cheap. do your part :D

    the interesting stat is that over 70% of Porsches ever made are still around.
  4. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    I still want hydrogen.
    backbone and rice r0cket like this.
  5. pickled egg

    pickled egg It was a dark and stormy night

    Yes, but the energy density is such that an average automobile can’t be driven to the refueling station without taking out a second mortgage and black market selling your kid’s kidney.
  6. Boman Forklift

    Boman Forklift Well-Known Member

    I still think natural gas is better, very abundant in N. America, and burns very clean. My car with just under 200k miles, you could wipe your finger inside the tail pipe and there was nothing. When changing the oil, it still looks clean coming out.

    I was filling mine up and there was someone filling their hydrogen car. Fill up takes much longer, I think he said it was 20-30 minutes and it was very expensive. So expensive that when you leased the Toyota Hydrogen car, they gave you a credit card that covered the fill-ups for a few years. I'm wanting to say it was about $15 per gallon. Natural gas at that time was still under $2 per gallon. Not sure how much natural gas is now? My engine popped a head gasket, I wasn't paying enough attention to the water temp gauge and I haven't replaced the engine yet.
  7. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Seems odd it would take longer, just pumping under pressure from one tank to another. Same as NG or propane. I'd be good with NG too and there's a lot more infrastructure for it. Never really looked into the amount of power per dollar for either of them but filling up your NG tank at the house would rock :D
  8. Boman Forklift

    Boman Forklift Well-Known Member

    I didn't research it either, but I think he said it was because of the pressure. Natural gas is 3600PSI and Hydrogen is 10000PSI. I know for natural gas, if you come to a busy station sometimes you don't get a complete fill because the compressor can't get it up to 3600PSI, so I'm presuming that is why it takes longer for the hydrogen fuel?

    I just googled and it said 3-5 minutes, so maybe I'm wrong? I do know he was filling when I got there, we had a conversation while I fueled, and I left while he was still there filling.

    The average price of hydrogen for a light-duty fuel cell electric vehicle (passenger car) in California is $16.51 per kilogram, according to the 2019 Joint Agency Report (p17). a kilogram of hydrogen (equal to 0.26 gallons of gas)

    So that stuff is expensive, but I presume it would come down with infrastructure development, they even said it could be $6-8.50 by 2025.
  9. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Oh yeah, if the hydrogen tank in the car has to be at 1000 that'll up things a lot on time and cost of the pumps etc...
  10. Ducti89

    Ducti89 Ticketing Melka’s dirtbike.....

    Insert pithy dungeonesque comment about the climate.

    I will say the technology aspect is cool. And that’s about where my interest ends.
    Gorilla George likes this.
  11. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

    Ahem, lets not go there... Stick with the tech aspect and we're good.
  12. Ducti89

    Ducti89 Ticketing Melka’s dirtbike.....

    Fixed before the moderator flag is thrown:D
  13. Mongo

    Mongo Administrator

  14. sbk1198

    sbk1198 Well-Known Member

    ^That. The difference in pressure is the biggest difference. Cost of H2 is also higher as you mentioned. Curious what brand of tank you have in your natural gas vehicle? Also what was the hydrogen car that the guy had when you were filling up?

    H2 is still being researched a lot. The DOE (department of energy) has put tons of money into research projects on this topic, along with various universities and automotive OEM's. I was involved in a few of them, and my old company worked with Daimler and Honda on developing the hydrogen tanks for their cars. H2 is a big challenge still. 10,000 psi is no joke. Sealing one of the smallest gas molecules at such high pressure is very challenging. And the storage systems at stations have to be even higher, at 15,000 psi. All of that means higher costs. H2 likes to permeate through just about anything. So the downside of it is that if you have a tank full of it and you're not using it for extended periods of time, you come back a month later and your tank will be half empty and your car/garage filled with H2...better not light up a cig lol

    Natural gas is so much easier. And it burns really clean.
  15. rd49

    rd49 Well-Known Member

    That’s because they hardly get driven. :D
    BigBird likes this.
  16. Sabre699

    Sabre699 Wait...hold my beer.

    An accident resulting in a ruptured tank full of H2 @ 10,000 psi could be a nightmare.

    Gorilla George likes this.
  17. nd4spd

    nd4spd Well-Known Member

    There are retrofit kits that convert existing ICE vehicles to natural gas.
    418 likes this.
  18. Jed

    Jed mellifluous

    What kind of vehicle was fueled by nat gas?
  19. Boman Forklift

    Boman Forklift Well-Known Member

    Mine was a Honda Civic, but I’ve seen OEM from Ford F-150 and Cargo Vans, saw some Chevy smaller car one time. Not a lot of options for OEM systems, and unfortunately Honda eventually quit making them when the take up rate started slowing down.
  20. Boman Forklift

    Boman Forklift Well-Known Member

    OEM Honda tank so probably your brand.

    It was a Toyota hydrogen car, don’t remember the name

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