DOT vs Slicks on MW bikes.

Discussion in 'General' started by Trainwreck, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. Trainwreck

    Trainwreck I could give a heck

    This issue is priority #1 coming into next year. I'm not sure who all does private 1:1 instruction in my area. I know Farrell does it, but I don't know anyone else in the Midwest. Before I broke my collarbone, I had some plans to hop down south over the winter for track days/racing to specifically work on this. I know it's the main thing holding me back.

    You know, i just though about that.. In all the WERA and CCS races I've attended I've really only spotted slicks or wets at the vendor.. Thanks for making me aware.


    This is good knowledge to know. Wyman is leagues beyond where I am. I could have very easily taken what he said literally and a bit out of context. NOTED!

    I think I'll more than likely stick with the slicks and just use take offs for track days and morning practice. My bike is set up for them, and its essentially all I know, and potentially "need to know" as far as tires and racing.. It's good to read everyone's take on it.

    Just some off season thought process stuff I'm working on. lol
     
    metricdevilmoto likes this.
  2. SpeedyE

    SpeedyE Experimental prototype, never meant for production

    I'm showing my age (OLD), LOL!
    TY :)
     
  3. stangmx13

    stangmx13 Well-Known Member

    All tires have a specific temperature range to function properly / optimally. The range for street tires is lower (and maybe wider) than slicks, but it still exists. Overheated street tires really suck on the track. A novice racers on a hot track would probably have no trouble overheating them on 600s/1000s.

    You'd also be silly not using tire warmers on street tires in certain conditions. The first lap of a cold windy race will be a lot nicer with warmers, especially if you are in a class that has to wait for a 2nd green flag.
     
    SpeedyE likes this.
  4. metricdevilmoto

    metricdevilmoto Just forking around

    To that point, I see a lot of tearing and premature wear on novice and intermediate bikes at track days (especially on big bikes) on dual or multi-compound hypersport tires due to the temperature differentials where the softer shoulder and harder center compounds meet when the shoulder overheats.
     
    stangmx13 likes this.
  5. mpusch

    mpusch Well-Known Member

    You'll probably benefit from changing your mindset and technique on this stuff more than anything else. If you're in off-season mode and looking for ways to improve, check out Ken Hill's podcasts linked in the "New Rider" section. They're definitely not just for new riders. Proper trail braking technique would probably bring your crashes down and help the lap times.

    Mike's story also reminded me a bit of my own that may be relevant:

    I had always run Pilot Power 3s and briefly the old trackday tires from Pirelli (slicks but not a race compound). They were fine and I could get around well as they were pretty much above my normal grip needs anyways. For my first race, I swapped out the front to an SC1 for the extra margin. I left the trackday tire on the rear. I KNEW better than to take liberties with tires, especially in a new to me experience that would be probably more demanding. However, I figured that since it was the rear, I could just use good throttle control (which is generally true!) and I wasn't that fast anyways.

    I ended up pushing just a little bit too hard (on my second lap in my first ever race), let the rear slip out when I used a bit too much gas leaned over, and had a pretty fantastic highside. I'm a pretty conservative rider on track and wasn't that fast, but I made a mistake.

    Here's my take:
    1) Yes, I made a mistake in that corner (though not a glaring one)
    2) A pro rider absolutely could have used my bike/tires and ran circles around me
    but...3) I'm confident I would not have crashed if I had a real slick on the rear. It would have saved me a broken wrist.
     
    cBJr and Trainwreck like this.
  6. SpeedyE

    SpeedyE Experimental prototype, never meant for production

    w/ all respect, I cant fathom someone gridding up, or being allowed to grid up w/ street tires in a race.
     
  7. Pneumatico Delle Vittorie

    Pneumatico Delle Vittorie Retired "Tire" Guy

    This somewhat/kinda but there was a time in the world (and especially with 600s) that the racing orgs wanted these Supersport race bikes to be perceived to be right off the showroom floor. And to help with this perception most/all race orgs mandated DOT tires so the tire development focused on DOTs. So it made sense for club racing to follow this idea and you the racer benefited with latest and greatest race DOTs. Then things changed and the showroom stock philosophy was deemed less important.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2020
    Senna likes this.
  8. busa99

    busa99 Well-Known Member

    This!
    Similar story. Was on the coaching bike at TBolt with Q4’s on just for coaching. I wanted to run some hot laps. I am a Pirelli guy for the race bike. So I know nothing about the Q4’s other than a few guys saying you can go pretty good on them. I ask Markbilt can you run hot laps on em and he says go ask Ant. So I go find Mazz and ask how fast he has gone on Q4’s.. 28’s! Cool. So I go out put down 2 warm up laps and first hot lap coming out of turn 3c the front tucks(I’ve never had a problem this corner,never). So as The front tire is sliding and most of you know it goes slow motion at that point. Lots of time to think. I’m saying to myself “welp, this was a bad decision.. and I’m definitely no Mazz!” Just at that moment enough grip came back that she stood up just in time to run off into the grass.. I got back on track. Put my hand up. Pit in and saved hot laps for the Pirelli’s from that day forward. Lesson learned. Some of us mere mortals cannot do what the truly talented can. Reminds me of Eddie Murphy Raw when the guy watched Rocky.. “ you know you can do that right? That’s s%^ts real.” Ahhhh nope
     
  9. Motofun352

    Motofun352 Well-Known Member

    Kyle took me on a 2-up ride on a FZ-1 with Dunlop Q3's...not even the plus's. Needless to say it's not the tires that are my problem. Pick what you afford and maximize your margin all while understanding what the tire needs regarding actual working temperature. Q3+ or Pirelli TD are a good choice for most and slicks when the weather allows.
     
  10. stangmx13

    stangmx13 Well-Known Member

    I know most everyone knows this. But I'm gonna type it anyway cuz it might help someone.

    "Try to run the same lap" should not be the goal for any outing on different tires. Or a major setup change. Or when the weather changes for the worse. Or a different bike. Or any crazy change. Build into something "new".
     
    SpeedyE likes this.
  11. Jgrisi92

    Jgrisi92 Member

    I don’t race, just run track days. FWIW, you could try something like the Q4 but I think you’d be disappointed after using the Pirelli slick. I had a similar progression pace as you and started with the Q3, to Dunlop D211, GPA, and currently using Pirelli Slicks. I found when the Q3’s overheated, it was quick and unexpected. My brother ran the Q4 on one of the last few track days this year at NJMP and liked them a lot. He said the tires felt great. Thing was, it was like a high of 65 degrees that day. He also had the same issue of overheating the Q3’s in the summer as I did when we first got into track bikes. I’d use the Q4’s if I needed a tire change that lined up with colder days in the season or something. Otherwise, I don’t think it’s worth the ~$50 savings. One simple wreck and the yearly savings could easily be gone. From what I read, the Q4 suffers from overheating as the Q3, but has a little higher temp threshold.

    My brother and I were talking to Eric Wood years ago and he stated similar things that others have. He was only ~2 seconds slower at Loudon on Q3’s compared to his race tire. I’m sure someone of his caliber can do that, but I certainly can’t.
     
  12. Knotcher

    Knotcher Well-Known Member

    Fuck it. Might as well spoon on a D606 if you want to more easily find the limit.
     
  13. damiankelly

    damiankelly Well-Known Member

    Mike all I heard is “‘the potential of saving a couple of bucks on a set of tires and ordered sets of DRCs.”’
    SO put me in for a set....HAHAHA
     
  14. Buell1965

    Buell1965 Well-Known Member

    very much a topic in my plans for 2021 , so am going with R11 stones on all 4 bikes from stickboy with single temp warmers just to KISS and less stuff to ponder on my way to semi fame here in my own little orbit of loyal fans , one wife 3 cats and 4 dinky dogs easy peasy .
     
    KneeDragger_c69 likes this.
  15. Marcos415

    Marcos415 Well-Known Member

    My first year doing track days I was on a 600 on Bridgestone BT16 tires which were sporty street tires. They were more than enough for my pace. However when it was time for a new set the Bridgestone vendor talked me into some 003 racing dot tires. I felt like it was a bit of a sales pitch until I did the first session lol. I dropped my lap times immediately not because the street tires were holding me back but because the new race DOT’s gave me the confidence I was lacking. I definitely learned quickly that a good set up is beneficial regardless of skills or lap times.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  16. Bloodhound

    Bloodhound Well-Known Member

    Anyone else remember Colin Edwards riding on Pilot Power 2Cts on his MotoGP bike and was within a second or two?

    Anyhow, for me (former trackday has been/never was), certain tire manufacturers I just couldn't jive with or get feedback from. Bridgestones and Pirelli I could feel, the Michelin power race was just completely numb to me until I nearly highsided around turn 3 at BHF trying to find a limit or "feel".

    That said, if you found something you are familiar with and it sounds like it's working, focus on the indian, not the arrow. Changing too much and searching for something magical can often leave you with more questions than answers.
     
    Pixelator likes this.
  17. metricdevilmoto

    metricdevilmoto Just forking around

    Run 'em at whatever pressure you like. o_O
     
    damiankelly likes this.
  18. Lawdog78

    Lawdog78 Well-Known Member

     
    jd41, Motofun352 and Buell1965 like this.
  19. Motofun352

    Motofun352 Well-Known Member

    HA HA...did you see him smoke them on the exit?
     
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  20. Bloodhound

    Bloodhound Well-Known Member

    Oof...I could've sworn he was only like 2 seconds off...not 8... My mistake.
     

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